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Interviewee: William Lloyd Aylestock
Interviewer: Dianna Braithwaite
Date: 1982-05-13
Location: 22 Markham Road, Scarborough, Ontario.
Transcriber: Kelly Smith
Description: This interview describes William Lloyd Aylestock’s youth on a farm in Glen Allan, his family and his work and later life in Toronto.
Language: ENG
Call Number: BLA-8997-AYL
Collection: MHSO African Canadian Collection
Acronyms: DB = Dianna Braithwaite (interviewer), WLA = William Lloyd Aylestock (interviewee)
0:00
Introduction
Dianna Braithwaite: I’m interviewing William Lloyd Aylestock, at 22 Markham Road. Today is May the –
William Lloyd Aylestock: Thirteenth.
DB: Thirteenth, thank you. I’m Dianna Braithwaite, and Mr. Aylestock is visiting here in Toronto from Montreal.
0:25
Hometown
DB: OK, I would like to get some information about your background. First of all, where were you born?
WLA: Glen Allan, Ontario.
DB: OK, and the size of your hometown?
WLA: About 25 families.
DB: Could you tell me a bit about what the hometown was like?
WLA: In that town, there was no manufacturing; it was more or less a country town. It had a hotel, a school and a church. Other than that it’s a place where farmers congregate and it had three stores. On Saturday night, [they] go to the stores to buy their supplies and stop at the hotel, which was run by, a man by the name of Bill Deckhart (??). At that time there was no beer [laughing], but they had just come out with one called Four-Four (??). It was an imitation beer. So the farmers would gather there on Saturday night and have a drink of imitation beer and talk to each other, and talk about old times.
DB: What year was this?
WLA: This would be around 1924. I would be 12 years old, that I remember most.
DB: Now, when you were born, you were born in the town of Glen Allan?
WLA: Glen Allan.
DB: Were you born at home?
WLA: Yes. In those days [laughing] everyone was born at home.
1:50
William Lloyd Aylestock’s first home and Family.
DB: OK. Can you describe your house, the first house that you lived in?
WLA: The first house we lived in was a farmhouse with two storeys, which sat back from the road. It was just a country style home with stoves. We burned wood for heating and cooking. Now, other than that, that is about all I can remember of that home in Glen Allan, but I later moved to a farm in Glen Allan with my grandmother and my two uncles.
DB: Oh, I see.
WLA: But I was still in Glen Allan.
DB: Ok, at that home, the home you were born in, who was there other than yourself? Your parents? Can you tell me their names and the other children’s names?
WLA: Well there would only be my parents, my oldest sister, Addy (??) and my next sister, Mary.
DB: Could I have their last names? Was it Aylestock?
WLA: Oh, yes. Mable Adeline is Addy (??). She is a Minster now. Mary, I forget her second name. I’m not good with second names, myself and my next youngest brother, Howard, and I even remember my second brother was born in that house, Frank. Now, that is about as far as I can remember in that house because I later moved, as I said, to a farm with my grandmother and my uncles.
3:27
DB: Do you know how your parents came to move to Glen Allan? What William Lloyd Aylestock’s parents made them decide to live in Glen Allan?
WLA: As far as I can remember, after dad and mother got married, she was raised on a farm about 10 miles from there. Dad, he came from an orphanage around Kitchener, or someplace. He moved into that area, I believe, working for famers and he later worked in a piano factory. Dad and mother got married. I think that first home, I think they only rented it. At a later date, they bought their own. That is how they come to settle in Glen Allan.
DB: Do you know much about your parent’s backgrounds?
WLA: Mother, I do. Mother came from a family by the name of Lawson. Going back to the generation before her, the family’s name was Cromwell. The Cromwells came from around Chatham, Ontario. The Lawsons were farmers approximately 12 miles from Glen Allan. That’s where mother was raised on a farm, in Peel Township. So, her background settled right in around there in Peel Township. Which is, what I say is 12 miles, approximately, from Glen Allan. For dad’s background, we have to go to an orphanage around Kitchener, for which I’m not getting too much information on.
DB: OK. Do you know the name of the Orphanage?
WLA: I hear him speak of, a Dr. Peterson’s Orphanage. But, I’ve never been able to trace it down.
DB: Oh, I see. OK. And what about your mother’s sisters and brothers? Do you remember their names?
WLA: Oh, now don’t ask me that, there’s 18 of them! [laughing]. I always ask my mother and she says, “I come from a large family. I’ve got 10 sisters,” and I says, “Boy! That makes 11 of you,” and she says, “No, 18.” “Where’s 18 coming from?” [laughing] “I’ve got seven brothers.” So, that’s a large history to go into. That’s the Lawson family.
5:54
Grandparents
DB: What about her [William Lloyd Aylestock’s mother] father?
WLA: Her father I don’t remember, because he died before I was old enough to remember. But her mother, which is my grandmother, I lived with grandmother quite a bit and I also lived with her on the farm with her two sons. So her, I can tell you quite a bit. Her husband, Lawson, I’m not sure if it was Henry Lawson, I believe it was, I don’t know because he died when I was too young to remember much about him.
DB: Did he die just of natural causes?
WLA: As far as I know. I was that young, I didn’t know. I don’t recall my grandmother ever giving me a complete explanation on how he died or what he died from.
6:41
The move to William Lloyd Aylestocks’s grandparent’s house
DB: Now I would like to hear about your move to their house. To your grandmother’s
WLA: OK. From Glen Allan, my parents moved to a town called Dryton. D-R-Y-T-O-N. In Dryton, dad worked for a sawmill and at that time he worked for a place that, what they called skutch (??) flax. Something that has gone out of date now. I heard so much about skutching (??) flax.
DB: What is that?
WLA: Well flax is a seed that is grown. They make oil out of flax, and at that time the flax had to be pulled. The Indians used to pull the flax, they pull it from the ground, and what they say “the skutch (??) flax”, the seeds were all beat out of it, and the seeds were used for a type of oil. So, he only lived in Glen Allan, in Dryton for a year or so. From there they moved to a village called Lebanon. OK. In Lebanon, is where your mother, Rella (??), was born? Did she ever tell you Lebanon?
DB: Yes
WLA: OK. So she was basically born and raised in Lebanon. So the ones that were raised in Lebanon were actually, from me down, they were my brother Frank, Rella (??), and the younger ones right on down. Now then, around 12 years of age, I went to live with my grandmother in Glen Allan, and she had two sons that owned a farm, a large farm, around 200 acres. And I went to school in Glen Allan, and lived with grandmother and her two sons, which are my uncles. Until I was around 16 I went to work for just farmers in the area. Then I went to the aircraft industry when I was 18. And that just about takes care of that.
8:54
Living with Grandma
DB: What was It like living with your grandmother?
WLA: She was a wonderful woman. She looked after me like a mother. She sent me to school in Glen Allan until she died. Well, she died on the farm. I was there when she died. When she died, then is when I went back home to my parents, and I stayed there, until, as I say I worked for a few farmers, which were relatives, and farmers in the area before I got into the aircraft industry.
9:28
School
DB: What were the schools like at this time?
WLA: The schools, the school that we basically all went to, and so did your mother, Rella (??), they went up to, in my day, eighth grade. There was one teacher that taught the eight grades. At a later date, she incorporated the first year of high school. So, my brother, Frank, and I think Rella (??), and them got their first year of high school in that public school, which wasn’t being taught when I reached eighth grade. So I got to eighth grade, and I didn’t get any high school education, because there was no high school in Lebanon. You’d have to go to Leister (??). One or two of my brothers, and I’m not sure about, Rella (??), I think maybe she did too, they went to Leister (??) for one year. But they had to board with relatives when they went to Leister (??). It was Leister (??) High School.
10:26
The community of Lebanon
DB: What about the community life in, that would have been, Glen Allan?
WLA: You know the most community life is Lebanon.
DB: Lebanon. What was the community life in Lebanon?
WLA: The community was farmers. In that area, there were basically, what we call, Orangemen. You’ve heard of the Orange Lodge?
DB: Yeah.
WLA: Yes.
DB: Could you explain it to me?
WLA: The Orange Lodge is a Lodge, similar to some of the bigger ones, similar to the Masonic Lodge and those. The people in the area were mostly all Orangemen. There was an Orange Lodge about six miles from us. So, although they were Orangemen they went to the same church in Lebanon, which was a mile from our house. We walked it. My father was a caretaker of the church and of the school. The farmers, they were all very friendly with my parents. They all knew each other. My parents, up until the time they died, they would come back to visit, some of these old friends in Lebanon. They were that friendly with my parents that they were just like what neighbours should be. It was really a wonderful village to live in.
DB: What was the nationality of most of the people?
WLA: All Protestant.
DB: Oh, so they –
WLA: Strictly Protestant. The Orange Lodge is strictly Protestant. That’s when they had their big day is the 12th of July. They carry their banners against the Catholics. Banners reading, ‘Down with the Dogants (??)’, and that sort of thing. Because they’re strictly Protestants, and their idol was a man by the name of, King Billy. You’d hear about King Billy on the white horse. On the 12th of July, they would have a man dressed up as King Billy, who would lead the parade by riding ahead of them on a white horse. Then the rest of the parade would follow them in Orangemen’s outfits. So, it was
strictly a Protestant, Orangemen district.
DB: Oh, I see. OK.
WLA [laughing] Yeah.
DB: And you would have been how old? Around 16 when you were at Lebanon?
WLA: Yes, I was there while I was 16. I would say from the age of 12, 13, 14, I stayed with my grandmother and my uncles in Glen Allan. My parents had already moved to Lebanon. I would only come home once and a while. So, then around 16, I came home for a year or so before I went to Toronto and got into the aircraft industry.
DB: What was the social life like in Lebanon for you at that age?
WLA: It was terrific. The neighbours were all out in the country like that. There was no differentiation, it’s all like one family. So, our social life was strictly amongst the white people, or Caucasian race I should say, and I actually didn’t see many coloured people until I reached 18 and went to Toronto. I only saw my own relatives, everybody around us. We were the only ones in the school, the only coloured ones in school, the only ones in the church, the only ones in the Sunday school. We basically came up knowing nothing else, except the white people, which were just one big family as far as we’re concerned.
DB: So did they have parties. Did you go to parties?
WLA: Oh, yes, parties even as children. The church would have social functions, which we would attend, like during the week. After we got growing up, my younger brother, Howard, got a violin and I inherited one and we both started practicing up on these old time country square dances. So, [laughing] the farmers would invite us boys, where which we would play the violins and watch them square dance. So, my social life was terrific.
14:44
Reasons for coming to Toronto and
his first job on the Great Lakes
DB: OK, and then when you left Lebanon and came to Toronto –
WLA: Yes, yeah, OK.
DB: What was your reasons for coming to Toronto?
WLA: For to get a job in the city. My first job in the city, well I went a little ahead of myself when I told you my first job was aircraft. I went on the boats. I forgot about that. I sailed on a boat called the ‘Salkirk’
DB: Could you spell that please?
WLA: S-A-L-K-I-R-K. Owned by Canada Steam Ship lines. I sailed three years on that boat. I forgot that. I was in my 20s when I got on aircraft. On this boat, the head chef was named, George Woodbeck (??). I was hired as the assistant cook, assistant to George. So, we sailed from Montreal to Fort William. It took us three weeks to make the trip, a round trip. We crossed the, down the St. Lawrence River. We crossed all the Great Lakes up to Fort William in Port Arthur, which is the end of Lake Superior. Occasionally, we would go into cities in the United States, like Detroit, Chicago and some of the [inaudible] would go off into Lake Michigan. We went to those occasionally, but not every trip. So, basically it was a three-week trip, a round trip, from Montreal to Fort William. It was called a package freighter. We carried package freight, including automobiles on the deck. We would load up in Windsor, with sometimes as many as 60 or 80 automobiles, bound for overseas. We would have freight between decks and we would have cargo in the cargo holds, automobiles on the deck. Automobiles bound for England with the steering wheel built on the right side [laughs]. Yes. So, I had three years of sailing for which I sailed in the summer and spent the winters in Toronto, doing any kind of work I could get till I could get through the winter. That is when I got into aircraft, after I had been three years on the Great Lakes.
17:13
Meeting people in his travels
DB: Did you meet any people while you were travelling?
WLA: You only meet them coming and going. To make friends, no, because you are only into a city, maybe you would pull into Toronto tonight when they would unload the cargo, which would be sometime tomorrow you would pull out. So, from Toronto you pull out for Hamilton, from Hamilton to Buffalo or Port Eerie. You keep going up to Sault St. Marie and go across the lakes. So, you only were in each city to spend a night or two, which didn’t give you a chance to many people.
DB: OK. You were mentioning about not meeting people when you were on the boats.
WLA: No.
DB: What about on the boat itself?
WLA: On the boat itself, the men came from practically all over Ontario. The Captain came from Sault St. Marie, Michigan. The other crew came from cities like Owen Sound, Toronto, some from Fort William. So it was mostly an Ontario crew on the boat, except for the Captain, who came from Sault St. Marie, Michigan
18:34
How William came to work on the boat
DB: How did you find out about the job?
WLA: [clears throat] In the winter, when I first left home, at 18 after having spent my life with relatives and my grandmother, I went to Toronto to visit
some friends and relatives. By this time, my oldest sister, Addy (??), had a job in Toronto and she introduced me to her friends. In meeting her friends, I met, Carl Woodbeck (??), who had a brother, George, who was the chef on the boat. He interceded for me, and got me the job as assistant cook on the ‘Salkirk’, which I started, as I said, I was exactly 18, when I started.
DB: And you worked for him for two years?
WLA: Three years.
DB: Three years?
WLA: I sailed three summers.
DB: Oh, I see. OK.
19:34
More on William grandmother
DB: I would just like to ask a bit more about your grandmother before we leave that section.
WLA: OK. My grandmother, her married name was Lawson. Her and her husband had a farm about 10 or 12 miles from Glen Allan where I was born. It was a fairly large farm. It was a farm that supported and brought up the 18 children. So, it was a big farm, a farm that grew everything, and he [grandfather] didn’t have to do anything else for a living, but run that farm, that’s my grandmother’s husband whose name was Lawson. I’m not sure of the first name. Anyhow, my mother grew up on that farm, and she went to school and also went to high school, and mother had a good education. I’m not sure, but I think she had a little bit of university education. Mother was well educated.
My grandmother, she had originally came from, around North Buxton or Chatham. Her maiden name was Cromwell. So if you hear of Cromwells in the Chatham, North Buxton area, they’re related to me, because they would be my mother’s offspring, or my mother’s relatives, brothers or sisters. So, basically the most I can remember about grandmother was that she came from around Chatham area.
DB: What did she look like?
WLA: She was very fair complexion. She had good, good hair, oh, terrific hair, like a doll, and she was a small woman but she was very knowledgeable, very fiery in temper, [laughing] very strict with her children and with me. So, she was a wonderful woman. That’s all I can say about my grandmother, whose name was originally - she was Lawson, her maiden name she originated from Cromwells.
DB: What was her first name?
WLA: Oh, you got me for the moment. I’ll have to think. Gee, at this moment I’m not sure. Maybe you would have to ask my sister, Addy (??). She’ll come up with that just like that. Men aren’t too good at remember names of their grandmother and so forth [laughs].
DB: Did she ever speak to you about what her life was like?
WLA: Oh, yes. She talked to me about her family and the Cromwells and from generations back, she said from generations back we come from, about, she couldn’t trace how many generations back as Canadians. She couldn’t trace us to anything else but Canadians, because it starts in around Chatham, North Buxton area. Dating back, I guess, to the dates when the slaves first settled in North Buxton. There’s quite a story behind that, you know.
DB: So then, would her mother then have been coming up from the States to North Buxton?
WLA: I don’t pick up any United States with her.
DB: No?
WLA: I can only pick her up as being from the North Buxton, Chatham area. So, I can’t pick up an American connection there at all.
DB: Did she have any sisters or brothers?
WLA: Uh, let me think. She spoke of sisters and bro - yes, she has spoke of sisters and brothers and the only one I ever met would be my second or third aunt, called aunt Mandy. She had married a Miller. Mandy Miller. But, I can’t pick up, I can’t recall any more relatives of grandmothers. She may have had now, but my memory doesn’t tell me of brothers or sisters other than aunt Mandy.
DB: For your grandfather, now, although you never met him, did you ever see any pictures of him?
WLA: Oh, yes. She had pictures of him.
DB: What did he look like?
WLA: Well in those days, she had pictures like, you remember those older fashioned men, with the high collars, the winged collars? She had a large picture in her room of grandfather. Rather distinguished looking coloured gentlemen you would say. A boy with the old fashioned look, you know? Old fashioned dress, yes. So, I don’t remember much about him, other than I know they were successful farmers in Peel Township, where mother was raised.
24:42
Queen’s Bush
DB: Where is Queen’s Bush? Are you familiar with Queen’s Bush?
WLA: I’ve never heard of Queen’s Bush.
DB: It’s an area up around there that I’ve heard of.
WLA: Any relation to Chatham, Listowel?
DB: Yes.
WLA: I can’t tell you the name in with anything in around Listowel or Glen Allan, or Elmira, or Arthur. Those are all the names familiar to the area where I was raised. Now is it possible, this Queen’s Bush could be in relation to Chatham or London? I don’t know.
DB: Oh, maybe London.
WLA: London. I’m not too familiar with London. Some of my other brothers and sisters are more familiar with London, since mother and dad moved to Lucan, which was 18 miles from London, after mother and dad retired from the farm.
25:38
After working on the boat
DB: OK. Now, coming back now after you finished your work on the boat. What did you do first of all –
WLA: Well, when you finish your work on a boat, we would lay the boat up around December, when it freezes up, you would have to do what we call “lay up the boat.” Tie it up to the dock and everything had to be put away until spring. Then I spent the winters in the Toronto. So, while spending the winters in Toronto, was when, at 21 I met my wife and got married. After I got married, I started seeking any job I could get in Toronto. At that time the depression was on, jobs were hard to get. So I took any job I could get until, I told you, I went into aircraft was my first solid job. From then on, I stayed with aircraft up until I retired two years ago.
26:35
William’s wife
DB: Where did you meet your wife?
WLA: I met her in Toronto, at the BME church which is Addy’s (??) church [laughing]. Yes. So, she was introduced to me by a friend of ours, who is still a good friend of ours, which is, Bea Tillman (??) of Buffalo. So, she introduced Anne to me, in Toronto.
DB: What was Anne doing at the time?
WLA: She was working in millinery, trimming hats and things. She followed the clothing industry a bit. She followed dresses as factory work and millinery, like more or less a seamstress.
27:29
Church
DB: Did the church play an important part in your life at this time?
WLA: At that time it did. We always congregated at the church. Most of our social life was, Sunday evenings meet everyone at the church. Then they had things like literary society which was connected to the church which would be like a recreation centre where all of us would have social parties during the week. So, at that age, most of our social life in Toronto, was at the church.
DB: Do you remember any of the names of the other people who used to go to meetings?
WLA: Oh, yes. Some of them are still friendly with my sisters. Such as Wayne Johnson, who is still a terrific friend of my sister, Mary. All girls like her and Beulah Richardson (??), those were like the single girls who came to the church, and the fellas that they married, they were like the single men who came to the church. So, there are so many names I couldn’t even quote them, but, some of them are still friends with my sister, Mary, and my sister, Addy (??).
28:40
Life for black people in Toronto
DB: How was the life for the black people in Toronto at this time?
WLA: At that time, it was generally known, and too much known, that black people had to take the inferior jobs, because it restricted the black boys to thinking, “We got to go into the railroads.” Some of our older ancestries did a wrong thing. As I recall, one of them telling me when I first went to aircraft…
0:00
Life for black people in Toronto
Tape 1, Side B
WLA: It had kind of become generally known, amongst the black people, that we must settle ourselves as railroad, porters and janitors maids and that sort of thing. But our ancestors were too much dwelling on that. Such as when I first went into aircraft, as I told you further back. I was the first black man to get into A.V Roe Aircraft. Our ancestors were telling us it wasn’t possible. That they wouldn’t hire a black man. So, they had too much dwelt on that. I recall one man telling me when I first go the job that, “My son went to university and graduated as an [inaudible] engineer and you know what he’s doing? He’s making down beds on the railroad.” Had I listened to him, I never would have went into aircraft. Not to have even applied to the job. I didn’t listen to him. I went out to A.V Roe one night, applied to the job, and I got it. So, that was the way it was at that time. Our forefathers had preached a little too much about black discrimination, and the young black man hadn’t had started to seek for himself, as I did, and
many others who followed me after did the same thing. If you settled to seek for yourself, you didn’t find it that way, you didn’t find the discrimination they were telling you about. I found none in aircraft.
DB: Was this because of, yourself being the type of person to go and get a job like this or was –
WLA: It was. Because, I recall after I went in there, my wife’s brother asked me about coming in, and I said I would intercede for him. And when I first got him an interview, he turned it down. He said, “You can get me an interview with my boyfriend, Jim and Jack”, he said, “But for me to go in there amongst all those ghosts [they called the white people “ghosts”] alone, no.” So, they had a kind of feeling amongst themselves, that if the aircraft company would hire a bunch of us, we’ll go. But for me to go alone, no. So, it was kind of still like that.
2:24
Jobs in other professions
DB: What about jobs in other professions, or other trades?
WLA: They were starting to break I would say. Because the war had just broke at that time. The Second World War. As the Second World War broke, the jobs started opening up more and more for black people, men and women. So, from the Second World War on is when the black man and the young black girls started springing out into other fields.
2:57
Unions
DB: Were there any unions that you were involved in?
WLA: Oh, yes, but unions were unknown at that time, because the depression was just over. The depression had infiltrated into some people, that when you get a job, you don’t kill it by going into a union. So, people were scared to go into unions at that time. So, unions sort of came more in vogue at a later date.
3:34
Population in Toronto
DB: How many black people were in Toronto at this time?
WLA: When I came to Toronto, it was listed as 5,000. It wasn’t a matter of few years, where it got to the bigger 10,000. How accurate that figure is, I don’t know. But I do know, that at that time, if you mentioned a family name, it’s a pretty good bet that people in Toronto would know that family. Where as now, there might be 100 families by the same name.
DB: Were there a lot of West Indians at this time?
WLA: There were I would say a portion. I don’t think it would be 50% of the Montreal Negroes had some West Indian blood in them, but quite a few of them did. They had some West Indian, their mother may have came from Jamaica or one of the Islands.
DB: Do you mean Toronto? You said Montreal.
WLA: Toronto. I didn’t know anything about Montreal at that time.
4:37
Marcus Garvey
DB: Were they close? Was the black community close?
WLA: They were, except for certain division lines. A lot of people, coloured people, had gone back to the admiration of Marcus Garvey. And I recall as a young man, going to in [inaudible] hall with the theme song, was the red black and green forever which would come up to Marcus Garvey. Well the non-Marcus Garvey admirers and the Marcus Garvey admirers, there was a big split there. As you see, you couldn’t even talk to the Marcus Garvey admirers, because you would have to admire and take your hat off to the ground that Marcus Garvey walked on. You having not lived in the Marcus Garvey days, there is a good bet you wouldn’t have believed. You wouldn’t admired him or honoured him, that is what I’m saying. So there was a division line there.
DB: Why would some people admire Marcus Garvey, and why would some not?
WLA: I will take the other side of the fence. I did not admire Marcus Garvey because I didn’t live in his days. I had heard rumours of things, that he had bought these ships to sail to Africa, and his ships were banned by the government and that sort of thing. So, I was not a Marcus Garvey admirer because my parents were not. If you came up under parents who were Marcus Garvey admirers, he wasn’t there, but you would admire the ground he walked on. So, I saw that division line. It was not a case of, in my opinion, your choice, but a case of your parent’s choice and what they believed.
DB: Did the parents have a stronger influence on the children then than they do now?
WLA: I would say yes. Very much yes. That influence, went so far as, many years later, after I was married and had a family my wife and I went to
Brooklyn, and we met a lady, who had been friends of her parents for years, and that lady admired the ground that Marcus Garvey walked on. That lady was so influential and so persuasive to try to sway us that you had to say to yourself, “Am I living under her rule or have I got a mind of my own?” That’s the way I felt about it.
7:39
The first black man hired at Victory Aircraft
DB: OK. I would like to hear more about how you got your first job, in aircraft. What was the exact title of the job?
WLA: Well, I first went there and applied for the job. I heard that they were hiring a machinist. The war had just broke at that time I should say, the Second World War. I got ahead of myself and I said that was my first job, I should explain, I was on the boats before that. When I went there, and applied for the job they gave me a test, and I made the test and I was hired. They said the only black, badge number 233. 233 man hired, and the plant grew up to be 10 000 by the time I left. So, me, being the only one amongst them conformed with the way I was raised. I was not raised like these Toronto boys, like my wife’s brother who said, “I’ll go there if they hire another two or three to go with me.” I was accustomed to going amongst the white people. So basically, that was the story. Once I got in I found no difference there, to the community I had come from, it was only a small community, this was the city of Toronto, Malton, which was at that time 15 miles from Toronto. I was treated the same as all the rest. I didn’t look for the chum coloured boys. A few years later they started hiring some. I just chummed with the people I had made friends with from the time of the day I was hired.
9:17
Reactions from the black community
DB: Did you get any reaction from other members of the black community as to the fact you were hired on to this company and being the first black man to be hired.
WLA: Yes. I got this. There was another black man to be hired, they started coming shortly after that. This one, not to mention a last name, came out there and first thing he did was stole some instruments, took them down to Church street, the pawnshops. Pawned them and he got caught. After he got caught, I thought he threw a stigma on the black people, but it didn’t stop them from hiring them, because they hired others after that. Well, from some of them like that, would come back the reaction that he was framed. I say he was not framed. He did it on his own. So, there was that sort of reaction.
DB: Did anyone resent the fact you were hired?
WLA: In there? No.
DB: I mean outside, other people in the community.
WLA: Like the black community?
DB: Yes.
WLA: I don’t know. I wasn’t all that friendly with black people. I wasn’t knitted in with the associations. I was - more or less, I could go with either. I came up with the others, I would still go with the others. I was hired to work with them. I was treated well amongst them. I saw no discrimination whatsoever. So I had no reason to. I wasn’t the type to holler anytime anything happened, “Oh, that’s discrimination,” which it seems that some of them would like to do that.
11:08
William’s job in the aircraft industry
DB: What was your job like? What were some of the things you did?
WLA: Oh. At that time, they were building the first Canadian built plane called the Lysander.
DB: Can you spell that?
WLA: L-Y-S-A-N-D-E-R. It played an important part in the Second World War, on the training of pilots and training them to drop bombs at a certain place. It was a bomber. It would go over a city and the bomb bay doors would open and drop bombs. I recall seeing a demonstration after we were building this Lysander, where they had a famous pilot, who flew over the airfield and they set up a wooden ramp, no more than 10 feet square. And the pilot that came down at that time was Mike Cooper-Slipper. He came down over that at something like 226 mph, opened the bomb bay doors and POW! With a dummy bomb he hit that and I saw the planks fly. That’s how good it was. It was a terrific plane. It was a nine-cylinder rotor engine, built by Bristol Aircraft in England. We didn’t build the engine we just built the plane. So, that was one of the first planes I worked on. From then on, we built the Avro Anson, which was a training plane for the boys overseas.
DB: Was that the Av-
WLA: A-V-R-O. Avro Anson. It was a training plane. From then they went into other planes before we got into the gas turbine, which was the jets. So, we built many types of planes and we eventually, at the end of the war we wound up building the first jet which was called the A.V Roe. We built the engine. On one side of the road the plant by now had the A.V Roe and it had Orenda which was the engine division, which was the gas turbine, which is a jet. They were in the experimental stage. On the other side of the road, they built the plane, which turned out to be the Avro. It turned out to be the one the Diefenbaker cancelled when the plants broke up.
13:55
The Company after the Second World War
DB: OK. From that point, how did your job change?
WLA: They changed that in as much as we are now into jet engines, which was know at Orenda engine –
DB: What year would that be?
WLA: ’46. The war was over, in ’44, ’45 - 1945 they defeated the Japanese. In ’47, I was back in – I was out of it for two years after the war. I took a managers over at a firm called G.P Grenell (??). That was down in the Lansdowne, Dupont area. I was a manager of a small company. Then I went back into the aircraft industry. They were starting to build the first jet engines we built in Canada, called the Orenda. So, I went back to Orenda in 1947. So pretty much I have been in aircraft ever since.
DB: So, In 1947 when you went back, what changes had occurred?
WLA: Well, the war was over, and the changes had occurred in as much as management would notify you, that you are now under different circumstances. When you were here before, the companies were under cost, plus 10 percent. The government sponsored the company and it didn’t matter to them how many people they hired or how hard you worked, the company got 10 percent profit from the government. So, they had to really lay it on the line to us boys that this is different circumstances now. You can’t fool around here and get paid from the government, this is private funds. So, that changed, it was the biggest change that had taken place since I had left before.
16:04
First house in Toronto
DB: OK. How was your family life at this time? Were you – did you have any children yet?
WLA: Well, at this time, as I had said, I had married and my first child and second child had been born. At this time, we had bought our first house up near Eglinton and Oakwood. That house we had lived in for twenty years. So that is when I had first bought it, just after the war.
DB: Oh Eglinton and Oakwood –
WLA: Yes.
DB: What street was it?
WLA: Whitmore. Right near the – it was a street called Times Rd. and next door was Dufferin and three streets north of Eglinton was Whitmore. We were the first few in that area too.
16:53
School for William’s children
DB: Was there a school nearby that your kids attended
WLA: Yes. In fact, they went to Vaughn Rd. Public and Vaughn Rd. High School. Which was within walking distance.
DB: Was Anne working at this time?
WLA: No. She didn’t work yet then, she didn’t work until later years after the children were brought up. In the years they went to school she did not work.
17:23
Discrimination in Toronto
DB: Did you notice any changes in Toronto, at this point, with your children growing up? Did you notice any changes over all?
WLA: Changes from - ?
DB: Changes from any point, whether it was political, social – was Toronto changing?
WLA: Toronto at that time was pretty stable. I don’t recall much happening in Toronto. I don’t recall – I was never a person to look for discrimination [laughing] so I didn’t find any. So, that’s the way I found Toronto.
18:06
Entertainment in Toronto
DB: What about entertainment? Was there clubs for black people to go to? Was there good entertainment in Toronto?
WLA: There was good entertainment, I guess, in general. But, I don’t know about the black people since we didn’t, by this time, were living well north, our children going to United Church, which was a white Church. Us communicating, socializing with the white people in the area. I don’t know too much what the black people were doing. We kind of isolate ourselves from them and made our own friends in the community where we lived.
18:48
Victory Aircraft 1959
DB: OK. How many years did you work with Victory Aircraft?
WLA: Well, it was a situation that had changed when they started building the engine. Victory Aircraft was on one side of the road and Orenda engines on the other. I went to the engine side. So, I went to Orenda engines and pretty much I stayed with Orenda engines until 1959, when our Prime Minister, Mr. Diefenbaker, cancelled the Arrow, which was the plane they were building, they shut down the complete aircraft industry, laid of 20,000 people from the two plants combined. Although, I wasn’t laid off, I wasn’t satisfied. I had been the supervisor over the planning and the experimental. So, when the lay off had come, I was dropped back to a planner. At this time, I was no longer doing my work. I was in the office planning and engineering layouts. So, after they shut down, I could have stayed on and dropped back and took the position of my highest paid man. I wasn’t satisfied to do that. I sent out resumes and I got into Pratt and Whitney in Montreal where the prospects seemed much better. So, that’s when we moved to Montreal, in 1961.
20:21
Underestimating Montreal
DB: What was that like for you? That was a pretty big move. Had you been to Montreal before?
WLA: I had been there. I had two brothers there, but I had underestimated things. Both of my brothers had learned French fluently. One of my brothers had learned it too fluently and had married a French girl [laughing] and they had 12 kids! They spoke nothing but French [laughing]. That’s daytime and nighttime language [both Dianna Braithwaite and William Lloyd Aylestock laugh]. I underestimated the fact that I was going to go to Montreal. I started to take French lessons before I got there. I had figured my social life in Montreal would be very good. After I got there I got interested in other things. I always played in orchestras a little bit as a drummer. I made money on the side even from the time we bought our first home in Toronto. So, as I went to Montreal, I found the orchestras were good, and I forgot about my French. Up to this day, I did not learn to speak French. But, I didn’t marry a French girl either [laughs jokingly].
21:34
Learning the Drums
DB: You said you were a drummer.
WLA: Yes.
DB: That’s interesting. Where did you study drumming?
WLA: I studied drums here in Toronto from the best in the business, called the Drummer’s Paradise, down at the corner of Victoria and Queen, owned by a man by the name of George Newman. George Newman came down from the symphony ranks. I studied drums, xylophone and timpani under George Newman. I studied up to the symphony stage, but I never did play in symphony. Up to this day, that would be one of my ambitions, to play in symphony. In symphony, you are not just a drummer you are a percussionist. A percussionist plays drums, xylophone, bells, chimes and timpani. The timpani is what people call the kettledrums. I studied those too under George Newman.
22:25
Jackie Cain
DB: So, what type of places did you play at?
WLA: I got into the jazz type of music. Starting back when I was in Toronto here, I played little outfits. The one I specifically remember was Alf Stanton (??), he was a piano player, and a good one. More of the classical type than the jazz type. So, he organized an orchestra of his own. So, I played with Alf Stanton (??) and his rhythm stylist here in Toronto. Years ago there was a – well when we organized the Alf Stanton (??) orchestra, we had a little Jewish boy with us playing saxophone by the name of Jackie Cain. Jackie Cain was a red-hot saxophone player, but we used to have trouble with him because he wouldn’t read music [laughs]. Anyhow, the boys all said to us, ‘Watch Jackie Cain,” and they were right, “He comes from the right bloodlines and he will go places, we should stick with Jackie Cain.” Anyhow, Jackie Cain pulled away from us, and he was on television regularly with a 20-piece orchestra. He was on television up until around 1948 or maybe later than that. He developed cancer and he died. They kept him on television until it was pathetic; he was like a skeleton on television. As the boys said, he had come from the right bloodline to go places, and he did. You know what they did after he died? They took the name Jackie Cain, and they found a girl whose name was Jackie Cain. So, it was Jackie Cain and his orchestra. So, they put her on as a singer, and called it the Jackie Cain Orchestra. So, it continued on television after he died.
24:23
Band Members
DB: Oh I see. What were the names of the other members in the band?
WLA: Oh. They were mostly university students at that time. I can remember some of them that are now lawyers, who were just playing with us to make money to go to university. It is pretty hard for me to remember some of their names. It is too far back. Three lawyers down on Bay Street. I see their names quite a bit. Bentley, Harris and Houser (??). Harris, he played trombone with us. When he graduated from university he went with the other two. There were ones like that. Jimmy Speed, he played trumpet with us. They were lawyers down on Bay Street. It was Speed, Simmons and something else. They took on titles like that. One I distinctly remember, was a Jewish man, by the name of Al Kaufman. On Eglinton Avenue, before I left, he graduated as a doctor. He had an office on Eglinton, near Keele, a Dr. Kaufman that was Al. So, it was mostly university guys that I played with, because the leader of the orchestra, Alf Stanton (??), he was in university, and I should spell him out first. He set up law Stanton (??), Beamish (??) and Stanton (??) after he graduated.
26:05
Life in Montreal
DB: OK. Now, after you went to Montreal?
WLA: After I went to Montreal, I got into the aircraft business. I was with Pratt and Whitney, which at the time I moved I felt it was a terrific move because their engines control the skies. When I got to Montreal, I didn’t find it as rosy as I had expected. I was a little too early. The contract that they had had wasn’t sanctioned. So, I started out in Montreal with a bang. Besides working there, playing in orchestras. So I got in with French boys, and we used to go up to Sainte-Agathe, which is way up in the mountains, about 75 miles from Montreal. So, the first few years I was there I went pretty steady to Sainte-Agathe. We would go up there, Anne was with me, we would go up on a Friday night, we would play at the lodge at Sainte-Agathe, which was a ski resort. We would stay over, and play Saturday night. In Montreal, for the first time then, they were playing on Sunday. So, we would play Sunday afternoon and come back Sunday night. So, the first few years in Montreal, I played pretty steady in orchestras besides the aircraft job. That for me, as in much I lost the desire to keep up my French.
DB: How did your children adjust to the move?
WLA: By that time, they had grown up and stayed here. Pricilla didn’t come with us and Dave was married.
27:53
Achievements
DB: OK, In finishing off this interview, I would just like to ask you if during your life time, from what you wanted when you started out and where you are now, have you achieved what you wanted to achieve?
WLA: I surpassed what I had in mind. When I started out, at that time, I set all glory on machinist and tool and die making and things like that. As I went, I also went to university at nights and trade schools and learned something about engineering. I got extremely interested in professional engineering, although I did not achieve that goal. So, at that point, my goal was raised. My ambitions were raised. I got interested in trying to obtain a farm of my own, a company of consultant engineers, and that I did not achieve. So, the latter part of my life, I did not accomplish as much as I had hoped for as my ambitions rose as I went. In the main, from what we set out to be, what we were, as young boys and girls, I should have to say that I achieved as much or more than I had in mind in those years. So, I am satisfied that I had accomplished a great deal in my life.
DB: Thank you very much for the interview. I enjoyed it very much
WLA: It’s been a pleasure.
Transcription of William Lloyd Aylestock's interview
This interview describes William Lloyd Aylestock’s youth on a farm in Glen Allan, his family and his work and later life in Toronto.
| Owner of original | Diana Braithwaite |
| Date | 13 May 1982 |
| Linked to | William Lloyd Aylestock |
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